(Disclaimer: we are trying something new with this post. Both of us are weighing in on this subject. Hope it’s not too confusing. Israel’s part is italicised, Collin’s is Bold)
I have been mauling the idea of salvation over and over in my mind in the last two months. This is something that has already turned my world upside down, both in how I perceive scripture and how I perceive other people. I have been putting this off for a long time, namely because I wanted to have a few answers before I brought the idea up, but I’ve frankly tired of having these ideas bouncing around my head followed with nothing but the sound of their own echoes. So, enough with the foreplay:
A Dummy’s guide to rediscovering your faith
Let me clear that I have faith in Christ. I trust there’s a God. I have experienced multiple instances in my life that led me to believe that It’s real and It’s a sentient, feeling, deity. I believe It has revealed Itself through scripture and it seems to line up with my experiences so before you start thinking I’m pointing towards some kind of mystical universalism, I have chosen the life of a Christian (more on ‘the U word’ later, promise). However I have been going through what I’d like to call a reconstruction period in my faith that took a level of razing to start over including lots of questioning, journaling, research, new Bible purchasing, coffee shop discussions, podcast subscribing, chat sessions, more new Bible purchasing and so forth. This is important to me and I’m not willing to let a part of myself die by the wayside because it’s too heavy or difficult to think about. Or maybe I’m not as smart as Joe Agnostic or Jane Nihilist and am still entertained by the pursuing of truth. So be it.
A few questions: What is salvation? If you are a christian, how would you describe the term salvation as it pertains to your personal experience? Would you describe it as an act of redemption, would it be a constant ongoing journey or would it simply be a name-tag you picked up in the church lobby (Hello, my name is atonement)? I am finding that the more I look at what it means to be a sinner saved by grace the more questions about it have regarding the how/why/what’s it really mean without the stigmas we have attached to it in our christian-ese culture (ex: nowhere in the Bible does it say accept the Lord into your heart to be your personal Lord and saviour). I’m not arguing that point necessarily, but I wonder how we got to the point where a phrase like that equals living a life Jesus led by example for us to walk in every day. That kind of jargon is not digested by my mind. In one hole, out the other.
SO. Let me go back about half a year ago when the seeds of these ideas were being planted. I was having a nice chat/conversation with a friend of mine online who is in seminary interning as a chaplain at a hospital and was sharing with me some insight from his line of work. We got to the point of ministering with people that were lonely, sick or dying and he said something akin to “I’m amazed by the number of people I have talked to that have simply never heard the gospel”. This struck me as odd since he was at the time in rural Indiana, one of the more conservative buckles of America’s bible belt. I soon realized what he meant was that the only gospel that our christian culture has worked hard at spreading (notice I did not say sharing) is not good news, which is the literal translation of the word. It’s a conditional statement, an invitation to join in a religious organization for a small one-time payment of your belief, whether you believe or not. Belief in my opinion is not a choice—it’s a statement, an acknowledgement of conviction. He went on describing how he talked to people who had given up hope, who had given in to depression and misery and the literal change of demeanor when they heard that someone actually loved them and died for them. End of statement. No decision cards or contracts to sign pledging their devotion and money, simply the GOOD NEWS. If the Bible is true about God’s holy spirit being amongst us than it’s also true that it’s that same holy spirit that draws peoples minds and beliefs to God, not our conversion methods.
That was a big change in my perception of salvation, that it’s not our job to twist peoples arm using guilt or fear mongering (Hell anyone?), but the Holy Spirit’s. But questions remained. What did that mean about life and death, regarding eternal destination? What if that person dies and I didn’t get a chance to lead him down the Roman’s Road or say the Sinner’s Prayer? I say that cynically but not maliciously. I don’t mean to mock the things that we have all been raised in, but I would like to pose a question that was hard for me to answer because it seemed (at first) be to completely contradictory to everything I grew up believing about Christianity:
What if God already saved us all inclusively instead of exclusively? My salvation wouldn’t be dependent on my belief, but on the sacrifice Christ paid for all time, past and present for all people (this reminds me of a previous writing regarding the prodigal son regarding what we deserve versus what Christ gives us). It wouldn’t seem fair, but is that because we are pious and demand equal pay or because God’s grace isn’t enough? I challenged myself to wrestle with this question for a long time and found myself starting to look at the world differently. Instead of seeing a world of people I needed to convert and souls to win, I started to see people that are in the same boat I am, that need love and don’t know they’re loved.
I know what you’re thinking: this guy is on a one way train to sell-outville. Christian Universalism doesn’t exactly sound like good ”dinner with the relatives” conversation. I wrestle with that too, because peoples opinions are important to me (see Collin’s post #1). I’ve already anticipated the backlash. I have my reservations still and am weighing a lot of it, but right now this is where I’m at.
-wrestleswithGod (Israel)
If your head doesn’t hurt from reading Israel’s thoughts there, then you are a better person than I. I feel like my brain is about to explode.
This is a subject that I have been putting a lot of thought into recently as well. I have been having a lot of discussions, listening to a lot of sermons, and reading a lot of Wikipedia articles (come on, I don’t have a whole lot of time to read. At least it gives you the gist of things, right?). I am not sure that I am as far swayed in one direction than another, but I am just kind of trying to broaden my mindset more. Open up my thought process a little.
Let me, like Israel, say this first: I am a professed follower of Christ. The God of the Bible is the deity that I believe is real, and I believe His Word is true, relevant, and perfect (not necessarily perfectly interpreted, however, but that is a totally different discussion for a different day). I believe that Jesus’ teachings and lifestyle is THE perfect way to live. That’s the top level of what I believe.
I started thinking about Heaven and Hell. In Jesus’ teachings, he never really uses the word “hell” to describe a place that is underground, with a bunch of skinny dudes in red jumpsuits running around with pitchforks. The “hell” he talks about is the place outside the city wall where the trash is burned and the lepers are forced to live. He describes Hell simply as a place where no one wants to be. Now there are definitely scriptures (Matthew 13:40-43, for example) that I believe are speaking of a supernatural place of rest, so I am not convinced of the lack thereof. I am not convinced of Universalist thought. What I am convinced of is that we are missing the point.
My friend Asa and I were discussing this a few weeks ago. He was talking about how we, as Christians trying to “convert” the world to our lifestyle, put way too much emphasis on Heaven and Hell. I couldn’t agree more. Jay Bakker said in a recent message, “if we make life about Heaven and Hell, we make life Hell. And maybe Heaven for us.” When Jesus told us to “go and make disciples of all nations,” was he telling us to go and make people feel bad and wrong about their lives, and scare them into believing in him? Personally, as hard as I have tried my whole 18 years of being a follower of Jesus, I can’t make myself believe this.
I believe Jesus’ point was this: there is a better Way to live. Now THAT is some good news. I believe that God wants what is best for us. Jesus paved the way for it. Regardless of if I believe that if I don’t accept this, I will suffer eternally, or if Christ’s death automatically entitled everyone to an eternal rest with my heavenly Father, I know that God wants us to step into this abundant life. I think that if we spend a little more time loving people, and letting them know that they are loved, and letting them know there is a much, much better way too live than anything they have ever known (Christians: this statement applies to you too), instead of being eager for the damnation of people who don’t subscribe to our ideologies, we might be one step closer to the peace that we all long for. I think Jesus said it best:
“The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.” – John 10:10 (NASB)
-Collin
11 Comments
Ok, this definitely is a post with a depth charge =)
I think that because we have a faith that bears quite a bit of reasoning, there is no need for backlash-just reasonable discussion of what’s there. Personally, I think there are a lot of problems with the ideas of Universalism, but I haven’t strongly approached doctrine from dealing with that argument. I can see why one would be attracted to thinking in this way, but basically then, where does that leave us? What impetus is there to behave morally if it all washes out in the end (not saying you are saying this, just taking universalist ideas to a quick conclusion). Do we need constructs of heaven and hell? Not saying that either.
What I would say is that if there is a reality, then it makes sense that God makes that reality, whatever form it takes (given the premises both of you mention: believing in God as manifested through the Christian faith). These questions of yours hold a lot of theological fodder- so I hope you don’t mind on one of them if I refer you to something I had written, and then posted in my blog, while on a forum with many atheists. I tried to strip off the Christianese to explain salvation.
Salvation
When you talk about the methods we use I think it is important to remember that God uses us as “vessels” or the vehicles of His message. The methods change, but the fact that “If the Bible is true about God’s holy spirit being amongst us than it’s also true that it’s that same holy spirit that draws peoples minds and beliefs to God, not our conversion methods.” can be reconciled by the fact that it is through us that He chooses to do that, as His witnesses and servants. And friends.
Actually I was saved by praying that “Jesus, Come into my heart” prayer, not because of any understanding attached to it, but because it bypassed my argumentative and proud mind. For others… something different. And there is the problem I think: we tend to want to elevate the method. Wow this works, let’s do it mindlessly over and over! Instead of the real living faith that propagates real life.
====//=====
Collin, you were saying,”When Jesus told us to “go and make disciples of all nations,†was he telling us to go and make people feel bad and wrong about their lives, and scare them into believing in him? ” The rhetorical answer is, no, of course not. But I think the question is faulty. Do people feel bad because we make them feel bad… or is there such a thing as true guilt that plagues mankind? Is there a real reason we may want relief from fear…. of death… of hell… of punishment? Is there some real justice/injustice in the universe that demands satisfaction? and what is our responsibility in clarifying that and presenting the remedy/pardon available? I think postmodern man gets the questions wrong due to beleiving the proper premises of thinking are in place. As a Christian, I question the presumption of those premises.With compassion, I hope.
So much more in your post!
Thanks for the link and post Ilona. I enjoyed the article your wrote, especially the Trinity part. I thought that was really well delivered.
I didn’t mean to imply that our methods of evangelism don’t work. I am honestly very interested in evangelism, and have considered missions in the past. I just feel like we have adopted a lot of distractions regarding our perception of salvation that can be confusing.
“we tend to want to elevate the method. Wow this works, let’s do it mindlessly over and over! Instead of the real living faith that propagates real life.” Great statement.
I completely agree that we are vessels, and I think I underrepresented that side of this view. We are the hands of God and are to represent God accordingly, but I believe that at the end of the day no one can draw near to God without God drawing them near first. And since Christ has payed our debt for us, I believe that we have all been invited and are in the process of drawing nearer still.
I agree, thanks for your comments. I know that I did come across cynical, and it was quite on purpose. I definitely was exaggerating a bit, but with good purpose. I know that if I am evangelizing, I would never try and make someone feel bad about their lifestyle, I’m sure you wouldn’t, either. I was making a blanket statement about mainstream fundementalist christianity. The type of evangelists that the world looks at.
Like Israel, I loved that statement you made about mindlessly using that method. I guess, in my head, thats the point I was making, I just came across more on the cynical side of things.
The one place I’m not sure I agree with you is the inherent “guilt that plagues mankind”. Thats why I said I think we are missing the point. Many “sinners” or “unbelievers” feel absolutely NO guilt for their lifestyle choices, in fact, I would say most people probably feel good about how they live their lives. I know you are speaking of a deeper, supernatural guilt (I assume), but still, I don’t think this is the issue. I believe the issue is not an inherent guilt, but an inherent emptiness. An emptiness I believe that only God can fill. A void, that little bit of unhappiness deep down, that little bit of dissatisfaction with life. That little bit of everyone’s heart that says “there has to be a better way, there has to be more to life than this.”
I guess I am just looking at Salvation from a more additive point of view than the more traditionally subtractive point of view.
Still, thank you very much for joining in the conversation.
Israel and Collin…
first off, great thoughts… I think our perceptions of salvation need to be challenged. I think that you guys are on the right trail. I, like you, am still wrestling with these issues…
so i’ll add a few thoughts…
Israel, i agree with you on that fact that its not our job to twist peoples arms in to make a decision. Its the Holy Spirits. I think you may have overlooked a key element in this discussion. I agree that Salvation isn’t just a door that you walk through (such as a sinners prayer), and “zap” your saved! There is a point of “recognition” that has to take place. But its more than that. Also, just belief in God does not merit salvation. Satan himself “believes” in the true God. Satan knows about Jesus and is power and his love for humanity. That doesn’t make him a christian.
Repentance! Paul talks a lot about repentance that leads to salvation. (Rom 6) It involves a belief in God, but it also involves repentance (not just a confessing of sin) but a continual repentance by turning of our life (death to our sinful life) over to the ways of Jesus. The act of professing and living with Jesus as LORD of our life. Its not just agreeing that Jesus proclaimed a great way to live (although that’s part of it), not just a belief and reverence of a higher power (although that’s part of it), its the act of living a life that recognizes our failure to meet God’s standard for living, and a recognition that Jesus lived the perfect life and paid the price for all we own.
Our salvation comes from Christ taking our place – when God looks at us, he sees the righteousness of Christ, not our filthy rags. But in order for Christ to do that, we have to relinquish our hold on the “good” that we have done (which is nothing) realize our depravity and follow Christ with our lives. Realizing that the way Jesus prescribed to live in the Bible is the best way and that we live it, not on our own strength, but through Christ working in our lives. Us living the good christian life does not have anything to do with our guarantee of salvation. It is the result
of salvation, not the prerequisite.
So in one sense, Yes, its universal! Jesus paid the price for all humanity! All have access to salvation! But the choice is left to each one of us. Do we accept this gift Jesus offers us or do we try to work it out on our own strength.
What has happened is that the church and christians has traded the awesome, messy act of loving people unconditionally and walking with them as they learn about the work of Jesus, and then as they follow Jesus and struggle with sin, for a moralistic christianity that operates on a “decision” because hell scares them and then “you better get it right because your a christian now”.
You are absolutely right with the notion that we need to see everyone in the same boat, we all need love and many don’t know and understand this unconditional love that was given to save them from the emptiness of this world and the “hell” or absence of God, in the afterlife. But we cannot water down the truth of sin and God’s moral standard.
Collin, people do often sense an emptiness more than guilt. (although i think many feel more guilt then they let on.) I agree with you on that. What i have cautions about is watering down our (humanities) sin and total depravity to the place where we just need to show people love and that there’s a better way to live. I don’t sense that your advocating that, but many people do.
We DO need to show unconditional love! Christians have this tendency to show love to someone until they reject the gospel, then they turn to love someone else who might be more receptive. That is so wrong. Thats not how Jesus showed love. We have to partner love and truth. Authentic, unconditional love and relationship, partnered with a proclamation of truth about God’s holiness, our sin, and the unending grace of Jesus is what i believe “evangelism” is all about.
i’ll stop rambling… the point is – people need more than just love… We(christians) need to show people the wildest, strongest love that they’ve ever experienced (the love of Christ working through us), but that has to be partnered with the truth about sin and what Christ has done!
Israel, we need to hang out more!
Thanks for being so gracious, guys.
I liked this:
“Do we accept this gift Jesus offers us or do we try to work it out on our own strength.
What has happened is that the church and christians has traded the awesome, messy act of loving people unconditionally and walking with them as they learn about the work of Jesus, and then as they follow Jesus and struggle with sin, for a moralistic christianity” That sums the problem up nicely.
Israel- you have good grasp of these things- it is hard to articulate it all when getting things on paper, but I didn’t think you were dissing evangelism.
Collin-
“make someone feel bad about their lifestyle, I’m sure you wouldn’t, either.” Um, I might. Altho, my purpose is not to make them feel bad, but to face reality, what I call big T truth (as opposed to relative, subjective small t truth)
I would argue with you on the idea of guilt.
I wouldn’t call it inherent so much as pervasive. And while I’ve heard people say things in line with your observation,”Many “sinners†or “unbelievers†feel absolutely NO guilt for their lifestyle choices, in fact, I would say most people probably feel good about how they live their lives”, I don’t think that is an accurate picture of how they live. I do think, however, that there are rationalizations, seared consciences, and some people truly given over to evil.
But mostly, when you look at cultures anywhere, humanity struggles with a guilt problem and tries many different ways to deal with it. That is why I would say it is universal to humans to suffer with actual guilt.
but whether it is guilt or emptiness, one problem in communicating the gospel is modern man’s propensity to denial. There are unbelievers that will not admit to your idea of “That little bit of everyone’s heart that says “there has to be a better way, there has to be more to life than this.†any more than to ideas of guilt for sin. Much of modern philosophy, especially the popular forms of it, strips out the idea of meaning…that is where a Christian often finds the conversation with unbelievers. The hard core ones anyway.
=======
Israel:
“I believe that we have all been invited and are in the process of drawing nearer still.”
Yes, but are we all safe from judgment? Therein is the question. are we all going to eventually be alright with God or not? There is the sticking point.
What I like about your attitude is the emphasis on the open invitation. We tend to limit God by layering on our judgments about the “outer man”.
and thanks for having me, guys. I realize I’m old school, but you’re really nice about it
I have a question.
It was asked:
“What if God already saved us all inclusively instead of exclusively?”
My question is, what does this do to free moral agency? Is there real choice in accepting or rejecting God? Obeying or disobeying?
Is there a different way of looking at the ideas of “inclusive and exclusive” in the context you spoke of?
====
And, ok another question.
In the view that “Instead of seeing a world of people I needed to convert and souls to win, I started to see people that are in the same boat I am, that need love and don’t know they’re loved.”
What interferes with love, with people knowing they are loved and being able to receive love?
Have you guys had a chance to check out Rob Bell yet? Something of your tone above made me think that you have, but if you haven’t, pick up Velvet Elvis first chance you get.
David, I actually had the pleasure of being a member of Rob Bell’s church, Mars Hill, for about 4 years. I love his work.
Ilona, you raise some great counterpoints. Let me say this: I appreciate your old school-ness. I think it really helps keep us both grounded as we start to ask questions and think of less traditional concepts.
Interesting word by Rick Joyner that relates to this post:
http://tinyurl.com/9bk2nf
David, I haven’t read the book, but did a quick googling. Came across this interview, http://tinyurl.com/7rxq5f. If some of this is indicative of his doctrine I think there is something major that gets turned backwards. ( about that in a sec).
I have picked up a few things here that are faintly “eastern religion” in view. I do think our society has become influenced with some eastern type of thought for different reasons and that this has entered our “church” views. Perhaps this is where we are getting some inner conflicts. If you read Francis Schaeffer you can trace his reasoning about the great divide there is in the two forms of thought. So some of our questions should not only address the validity of specific Christian thought (or doctrine) but of Eastern type as well. We shouldn’t grant presumption of truth to Eastern thought any more than to Christian without holding both up to examination.
Back to Bell:
“Peter says in Acts, “He will return to restore everything.”
So it is a giant thing that God is doing here and not just the forgiveness of individuals. It is the reconciliation of all things.”
Um.
Here’s the thing: the scriptures say that all things were put into subjection to futility for man’s sake.”Romans 8: 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.”
So in this case Bell has it backwards and the individual’s forgiveness of sin would be *everything* in this larger picture of God’s plan. It all pivots on this factor/need.
He also says this:”So over the years I’ve found that everything but the risen Christ fails. It doesn’t deliver.” and that is basic to what I’ve found to be true, too.
Sometimes I think ppl shake up the presumptions and remove encrustations that have settled in, and that seems to be a necessity for growth. You just want to be careful that you don’t cut away the living tissue that is necessary.
C’mon, Is. Surely you have a JBQ answer for this stuff….