I have picked up a few things here that are faintly “eastern religion” in view. I do think our society has become influenced with some eastern type of thought for different reasons and that this has entered our “church” views. Perhaps this is where we are getting some inner conflicts. If you read Francis Schaeffer you can trace his reasoning about the great divide there is in the two forms of thought. So some of our questions should not only address the validity of specific Christian thought (or doctrine) but of Eastern type as well. We shouldn’t grant presumption of truth to Eastern thought any more than to Christian without holding both up to examination.

Back to Bell:
“Peter says in Acts, “He will return to restore everything.”

So it is a giant thing that God is doing here and not just the forgiveness of individuals. It is the reconciliation of all things.”

Um.
Here’s the thing: the scriptures say that all things were put into subjection to futility for man’s sake.”Romans 8: 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.”

So in this case Bell has it backwards and the individual’s forgiveness of sin would be *everything* in this larger picture of God’s plan. It all pivots on this factor/need.

He also says this:”So over the years I’ve found that everything but the risen Christ fails. It doesn’t deliver.” and that is basic to what I’ve found to be true, too.

Sometimes I think ppl shake up the presumptions and remove encrustations that have settled in, and that seems to be a necessity for growth. You just want to be careful that you don’t cut away the living tissue that is necessary.

Ilona, you raise some great counterpoints. Let me say this: I appreciate your old school-ness. I think it really helps keep us both grounded as we start to ask questions and think of less traditional concepts.

It was asked:
“What if God already saved us all inclusively instead of exclusively?”

My question is, what does this do to free moral agency? Is there real choice in accepting or rejecting God? Obeying or disobeying?

Is there a different way of looking at the ideas of “inclusive and exclusive” in the context you spoke of?
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And, ok another question.

In the view that “Instead of seeing a world of people I needed to convert and souls to win, I started to see people that are in the same boat I am, that need love and don’t know they’re loved.”

What interferes with love, with people knowing they are loved and being able to receive love?

What has happened is that the church and christians has traded the awesome, messy act of loving people unconditionally and walking with them as they learn about the work of Jesus, and then as they follow Jesus and struggle with sin, for a moralistic christianity” That sums the problem up nicely.

Israel- you have good grasp of these things- it is hard to articulate it all when getting things on paper, but I didn’t think you were dissing evangelism.

Collin-
“make someone feel bad about their lifestyle, I’m sure you wouldn’t, either.” Um, I might. Altho, my purpose is not to make them feel bad, but to face reality, what I call big T truth (as opposed to relative, subjective small t truth)

I would argue with you on the idea of guilt.
I wouldn’t call it inherent so much as pervasive. And while I’ve heard people say things in line with your observation,”Many “sinners” or “unbelievers” feel absolutely NO guilt for their lifestyle choices, in fact, I would say most people probably feel good about how they live their lives”, I don’t think that is an accurate picture of how they live. I do think, however, that there are rationalizations, seared consciences, and some people truly given over to evil.

But mostly, when you look at cultures anywhere, humanity struggles with a guilt problem and tries many different ways to deal with it. That is why I would say it is universal to humans to suffer with actual guilt.
but whether it is guilt or emptiness, one problem in communicating the gospel is modern man’s propensity to denial. There are unbelievers that will not admit to your idea of “That little bit of everyone’s heart that says “there has to be a better way, there has to be more to life than this.” any more than to ideas of guilt for sin. Much of modern philosophy, especially the popular forms of it, strips out the idea of meaning…that is where a Christian often finds the conversation with unbelievers. The hard core ones anyway.
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Israel:
“I believe that we have all been invited and are in the process of drawing nearer still.”

Yes, but are we all safe from judgment? Therein is the question. are we all going to eventually be alright with God or not? There is the sticking point.

What I like about your attitude is the emphasis on the open invitation. We tend to limit God by layering on our judgments about the “outer man”.

and thanks for having me, guys. I realize I’m old school, but you’re really nice about it

so i’ll add a few thoughts…

Israel, i agree with you on that fact that its not our job to twist peoples arms in to make a decision. Its the Holy Spirits. I think you may have overlooked a key element in this discussion. I agree that Salvation isn’t just a door that you walk through (such as a sinners prayer), and “zap” your saved! There is a point of “recognition” that has to take place. But its more than that. Also, just belief in God does not merit salvation. Satan himself “believes” in the true God. Satan knows about Jesus and is power and his love for humanity. That doesn’t make him a christian.

Repentance! Paul talks a lot about repentance that leads to salvation. (Rom 6) It involves a belief in God, but it also involves repentance (not just a confessing of sin) but a continual repentance by turning of our life (death to our sinful life) over to the ways of Jesus. The act of professing and living with Jesus as LORD of our life. Its not just agreeing that Jesus proclaimed a great way to live (although that’s part of it), not just a belief and reverence of a higher power (although that’s part of it), its the act of living a life that recognizes our failure to meet God’s standard for living, and a recognition that Jesus lived the perfect life and paid the price for all we own.

Our salvation comes from Christ taking our place – when God looks at us, he sees the righteousness of Christ, not our filthy rags. But in order for Christ to do that, we have to relinquish our hold on the “good” that we have done (which is nothing) realize our depravity and follow Christ with our lives. Realizing that the way Jesus prescribed to live in the Bible is the best way and that we live it, not on our own strength, but through Christ working in our lives. Us living the good christian life does not have anything to do with our guarantee of salvation. It is the result
of salvation, not the prerequisite.

So in one sense, Yes, its universal! Jesus paid the price for all humanity! All have access to salvation! But the choice is left to each one of us. Do we accept this gift Jesus offers us or do we try to work it out on our own strength.

What has happened is that the church and christians has traded the awesome, messy act of loving people unconditionally and walking with them as they learn about the work of Jesus, and then as they follow Jesus and struggle with sin, for a moralistic christianity that operates on a “decision” because hell scares them and then “you better get it right because your a christian now”.

You are absolutely right with the notion that we need to see everyone in the same boat, we all need love and many don’t know and understand this unconditional love that was given to save them from the emptiness of this world and the “hell” or absence of God, in the afterlife. But we cannot water down the truth of sin and God’s moral standard.

Collin, people do often sense an emptiness more than guilt. (although i think many feel more guilt then they let on.) I agree with you on that. What i have cautions about is watering down our (humanities) sin and total depravity to the place where we just need to show people love and that there’s a better way to live. I don’t sense that your advocating that, but many people do.

We DO need to show unconditional love! Christians have this tendency to show love to someone until they reject the gospel, then they turn to love someone else who might be more receptive. That is so wrong. Thats not how Jesus showed love. We have to partner love and truth. Authentic, unconditional love and relationship, partnered with a proclamation of truth about God’s holiness, our sin, and the unending grace of Jesus is what i believe “evangelism” is all about.

i’ll stop rambling… the point is – people need more than just love… We(christians) need to show people the wildest, strongest love that they’ve ever experienced (the love of Christ working through us), but that has to be partnered with the truth about sin and what Christ has done!

Israel, we need to hang out more!

Like Israel, I loved that statement you made about mindlessly using that method. I guess, in my head, thats the point I was making, I just came across more on the cynical side of things.

The one place I’m not sure I agree with you is the inherent “guilt that plagues mankind”. Thats why I said I think we are missing the point. Many “sinners” or “unbelievers” feel absolutely NO guilt for their lifestyle choices, in fact, I would say most people probably feel good about how they live their lives. I know you are speaking of a deeper, supernatural guilt (I assume), but still, I don’t think this is the issue. I believe the issue is not an inherent guilt, but an inherent emptiness. An emptiness I believe that only God can fill. A void, that little bit of unhappiness deep down, that little bit of dissatisfaction with life. That little bit of everyone’s heart that says “there has to be a better way, there has to be more to life than this.”

I guess I am just looking at Salvation from a more additive point of view than the more traditionally subtractive point of view.

Still, thank you very much for joining in the conversation.